I have been increasingly concerned about what I can only call Christian “trance dancing”. I have been watching many videos on youtube and google video of different worship meetings and there seems to be some very disconcerting common threads. One is that they look a lot like rave parties with many people up front as in a rock concert or mosh pit.
Here is a picture of a Christian mosh pit:
The second common thread to these kinds of meetings is the very pagan or voodoo sounding drum beats and their relationship to bringing people into trance states or altered states of consciousness.
David Cloud states in his article “IS THERE A CONNECTION BETWEEN ROCK MUSIC AND VOODOO OR AFRICAN PAGANISM?”, that the modern rock and roll music industry did indeed have it’s roots in the African tribal culture:
“The incessant, poly-rhythms pounded out on cylindrical drums [by African tribals] is the catalyst of rhythm and blues, rock and roll, and today’s heavy metal. It is amazing that the reactions we see at a contemporary rock concert are an exact copy of what happened in the Pinkster celebrations [black festivals in New York] or at Place Congo [black slave dancing in New Orleans] during the Antebellum Period. Any analysis that denies this fact renders the church impoverished in its understanding of the African connection to the rock movement of the 20th century. (1)
What happens when someone is exposed to this kind of tribal drumming for any period of time? “Studies have shown that vibrations from rhythmic sounds have a profound effect on brain activity. In shamanic traditions, drums were used in periodic rhythm to transport the shaman into other realms of reality. The vibrations from this constant rhythm affected the brain in a very specific manner, allowing the shaman to achieve an altered state of mind and journey out of his or her body .” (2)
Roger Oakland, in his article “Drumming Up Jesus” says:
Studying the Bible verse by verse is no longer a prerequisite for mature spiritual growth according to many emergent church leaders. Instead, innovative methods are being promoted to get in tune with “God” or get closer to “God” by re-introducing techniques practiced by the pagans. These are methods that bring instant gratification and sensation. Contact with the spirit world is guaranteed for spiritual seekers who want to have an encounter with “Jesus” by experimenting with the mystical and the metaphysical. ….
With the skill of a seasoned grand marshal, Cory Blake takes the discordant pieces and leads the group into an amazingly alluring beat. Listen for a few minutes and you understand why shamans use drums to lure themselves into trances. “It’s a contemplative tradition,” Blake says of the drum circle he’s leading. “It speaks directly to the intelligence of the body.” (3) (for more information on contemplative traditions see my blog on IHOP and contemplative prayer here)
Is this what is happening in churches all over the country, and even around the world? Are Christians being lured by another spirit into trances that introduce them to another Jesus?
“Since Richard Foster and others have led the way for the popularization of the “contemplative tradition” in the name of spiritual formation in countless churches professing to be Christian, practices like shamanistic drumming are promoted as an excellent way to get into an altered state of consciousness in the name of Christ. However, while tuning one’s brain into a hypnotic beat of a drum may “speak directly to the intelligence of the body,” getting into a mindless trance can be lethal for one’s soul. “ (4)
What happens to someone when they are exposed to this drumming?
”This is when the drum is used as a vehicle to enter a different state of consciousness rather than merely as a musical instrument. It is in this different state – named the shamanic state of consciousness – that the shamanic practitioner can receive vital information and healing for the individual or community with which he or she is working. This type of drumming – which has been used by shamans all over the world for thousands of years – is a repetitive rhythm played about 250 beats per minute (4-7 beats per second). This entrains the brain into the theta state – opening people to receive inspiration and vision. When the shaman has gathered the information they require – the drumming changes to a rapid rhythm of around 350 beats per minute, bringing them back to an ordinary state of consciousness.
Can we all reach this altered state of consciousness through the drums?
Yes, anyone can alter his or her state of consciousness.
Our ancestors have been using drums in this way for thousands of years. However, once they were in an altered state of consciousness, they knew exactly how to skilfully navigate within that reality, whereas our culture is just re-discovering those latent talents. Shamans have always understood the importance of the drum.” (5)
Trance Dancing changes the brain waves from alpha and beta to Theta:
Brain pattern studies conducted by researcher Melinda Maxfield into the (SSC) Shamanic State of Consciousness found that the steady rhythmic beat of the drum struck four and one half times per second was the key to transporting a shaman into the deepest part of his shamanic state of consciousness. It is no coincidence that 4.5 beats, or cycles per second corresponds to the trance like state of theta brain wave activity. In direct correlation, we see similar effects brought on by the constant and rhythmic drone of Tibetan Buddhist chants, which transport the monks and even other listeners into realms of blissful meditation.
Theta waves range between 4-7 HZ. Theta is one of the more elusive 20 and extraordinary realms we can explore. It is also known as the twilight state which we normally only experience fleetingly as we rise up out of the depths of delta upon waking, or drifting off to sleep. In theta we are in a waking dream, vivid imagery flashes before the mind’s eye and we are receptive to information beyond our normal conscious awareness. (6)
Note the drum beats in the following video:
Sloshfest 08 Glory dance trance
“For millennia humans have been dancing in the wilderness in ritual and in ceremonial rites of passage. In many cultures such as the Bushmen of the Kalahari, we can find techniques of trance dancing, which elevate them into ecstatic, altered states of consciousness. When the Bushmen enter this state, it is reported that such an incredible rush of energy surges through their bodies that they cannot help but fall to the ground. This has been compared to the kundalini rising- the dormant energy at the base of the spine that can be awakened through certain yogic techniques. “ (7) (see my blogs on the Kundalini here)
According to David Cloud of Way of Life, Christian drum circles are becoming more and more popular.
“Drum circles are growing in popularity in North American society in general and are beginning to be used in ecumenical and emerging churches.
A drum circle is a group of people who get together to beat out rhythms on various types of drums and to be carried along by the interminable pounding beat. Drum circles are a logical outgrowth of the addiction to the rock & roll back beat, which is an integral part of contemporary Christian worship.
The group Rhythm Praise is dedicated to hosting drum circles and “rhythm events.” It is said to “open up a dialog within a community where communication, shared values, self-esteem and unity can be attained” (http://www.rhythmpraise.org/). It is “a vehicle to break down barriers between people and to foster healing.”
In 2004 the Cameron United Methodist Church in Denver, Colorado, hosted a community drum circle night entitled “drumming up the spirits” (Christine Stevens, “Drumming up the Spirits,” Christian Sound & Song, Issue 9, 2005, http://www.ubdrumcircles.com/article_spirits.html).
This was “a kick-off to future church based drumming programs” and since then the women’s spirituality group has taken up drumming.
Stevens says: “Drumming is happening in churches across America. It is being used in children’s programs, worship services, family events, and men’s and women’s groups.”
The Church of the Holy Comforter of Richmond, Virginia, founded by Regena Stith, uses drum circles. Stith first experienced the drums in the late 1990s during a yoga retreat (Roger Oakland, Faith Undone, p. 70). She said that during the drumming “you move out of your head.” (8 )
What is the purpose of bringing Christians into an altered state of consciousness through trance dancing and drum circles? It is to seduce them into believing that they are having a mystical experience with God whereby they experience a state of “ecstasy”. This is a “feeling” based spirituality, not a faith based one. You will notice that most of these tranced based “Christian” meetings are geared toward the youth. Now instead of taking the pill they say that Jesus is the new X. (see my blogs about John Crowder and the kundalini spirit here)
Here is Ben Dunn repeating the mantra “going into ecstasy” on the video: ecstasies – Benjamin Dunn – Sloshfest 08
Ben Dunn and John Crowder’s “Holy Ghost House Party”
Compare the above videos with the following New Age group that promotes Ekstasis Dance:
“The word ecstasy has its roots in Greek, ec stasis- to be outside of oneself. In ancient Greece there were temples in which the rites of attaining ecstasy were performed, often with the help of the Soma. The term Soma is found in the writings of many ancient peoples from Greece to India; the ingredients are mysterious yet it was apparently some kind of psychoactive tea, possibly mushroom tea.
Currently, the most popular rave drug is ‘ecstasy,’ what used to be pharmaceutical MDMA. It can have the effects of heightening fleshy sensations, energizing dance movement and conversation. In this case, the individual has not left his/her body as in some ecstatic rites, rather, the body has become a more pleasurable place to be, charged with serotonin. What is interesting, however, is that ecstasy can urge people to connect through speech or touch, to almost go inside the other person. The ec stasis may be to become a part of somebody else, even a complete stranger. Perhaps the ego is still at play, yet the usual barriers of separation begin to dissolve. A sense of love and acceptance can arise in a large group of people. The dangers of using too much ecstasy, of course, is that the serotonin function burns out and is lost.
The urge to dance and to enter altered states of consciousness is in fact part of a natural process. From the dawning of human culture, there have existed the ‘rites of passage’. These rites are imprinted in the human psyche and contain psychic energy patterns, that is to say in Jungian terms -the archetypes of the collective unconscious. These archetypal rites of passage represent an important and sacred time, the coming into adulthood of an adolescent boy or girl. The primary and essential pattern is threefold. “(9)
In the article Trance, Dance, and Ecstasy - A Planetary Rite of Passage Steve Harkless states the following:
“The rites of passage have been reinitiated; they break through the unconscious by their need to be fulfilled. Most ‘ravers’ seem to be in the age group of 14 – 20. This is appropriate considering that it is also the natural time to enter into adulthood. The stages of separation, expansion, and rebirth come to the surface and manifest themselves. They may be carried out successfully. The DJ fills the role of the shaman/guide; yet because there are no traditional elders to guide the youth through the experience, the first stage may be an obstacle. “……
The lesson that can be shown by using ecstasy, as we learn in much Eastern philosophy, is that we are not separate from one another or from the cosmos. The truth is that we do not need the pill to experience ecstasy. It is possible through music and dance alone, to open up to and receive the energies of one another, the earth and the cosmos. The love that is felt is always present; it does not come from the pill! Therefore it is up to us to access that energy, the experience of connection, and the dissolution of the ego. While still embracing individual expression, we may realize that we are all beautiful, individual expressions of the undivided whole. The dance is not a competition; it is a phenomenal reflection of the greater Self. ……
‘Shamanic techniques’ also come into play with genres such as psychedelic trance; the repetition of certain tones with increased beats-per-minute can induce a trance state. The various frequencies, aided by a powerful sound system, do resonate and open the energy centers of the body. The heartbeat of the bass kick keeps us grounded on Earth, while the higher frequencies open our crowns to the world of the sky.” (10)
Here is an example of Christian ekstasis dance and “worship”
Dj Caleb & Club Mysterio (promoted by Patricia King of Xtreme prophetic)
As said above: “Ekstasis (Ecstasy) is from the Ancient Greek, έκ-στασις (ex-stasis), and means to stand outside of oneself or to be removed to somewhere else. Ekstasis worship or trance dancing is known to every pagan culture and is meant to bring the participant to a level of excitement called ecstasy. Trance Dance is a “healing tool” with its roots in many ancient cultures. It is practiced by Shaman.
“Listen to how one New Age writer defines and describes the ecstatic form of dancing.
“The purpose of a trance dance is essentially to bring you to a place in the sacred zone where the spirits can reach you…In trance dance, the rhythms and movements combine with the music to create an altered state of consciousness that allows entry into the sacred realm…Allowing the body, and parts of the body, to move to and express rhythms it finds engaging in the moment leads to this meditative state of mind and allows entry into a deeper mythic reality.” Adapted from Circle of Shaman, by Karen Berggren (Inner Traditions, 1998).
Now let’s listen as Patricia King describes trance dancing or “Ekstasis” on her website Extreme Prophetic.
“DJ Caleb Club Mysterio combines ekstasis worship, beats, electronic musical expressions, dance, prayer and a powerful prophetic flow to create a Christian rave experience. Club Mysterio is not a Night Club, it is a Light Club! This new expression of abandoned worship allows you to put feet to your faith as you dance and flow, pressing into the presence of God and experiencing the deep mysteries of intimacy with the Lord…the One who is truly worth raving about!”
In a mail-out flyer from 2007, Patricia King invites participants to “Come bring in the New Year at the ultimate party in the secret place. Enter into the glory realm through the hypnotic sounds of Ekstasis music and the powerful sounds of drum and bass and deep house presented by our electronic music master DJ Caleb.
“Ekstasis is a Greek word for moving beyond oneself. Since time began we as humans have realized our ability to have sensations that transcend our mundane experience – to experience a journey to enhanced states of consciousness, and find freedom from the perceived constraints of time and space…… It is a chance to reclaim our shamanic heritage of healing through transformational, cathartic experiences. To dance our way into a trance, where we move beyond ourselves to connect with the divine source and bring back the vision of a fuller, more potent existence.” (www.ekstasisdance.com).
It is a well established fact that many of the eastern and esoteric religions employ the techniques of trance dancing. The hypnotic sounds and movements elevate dancers into ecstatic, altered states of consciousness. It is while they are in these altered states of consciousness that they are most open to suggestion, mind control, seduction by deceiving spirits, and spontaneous Kundalini awakenings. However do not be deceived there is no such thing as “Christian” trance dancing.” (11)
Footnotes:
- IS THERE A CONNECTION BETWEEN ROCK MUSIC AND VOODOO OR AFRICAN PAGANISM? http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/isthere.htm)
- Commentary by Roger Oakland “Drumming Up Jesus”
www.understandthetimes.org
- IBID
- IBID
thatnks for the link
sadly, many will see this and reason most of it away as they do with my blogs “whats the problem?” you know that kind of stuff. most dont see the danger in this at all or will say such things as ‘there was dancing in the bible’ or ‘ there were drums in the bible’ etc.
just not seeing that they are frogs in warm water tha is heating up very very quickly.
oh well, ‘my sheep here my voice and they know me’ -JESUS-
we just have to trust that Gods people will hear his voice through all of this and come out of t.
god bless you.
We just have to keep getting the word out and hope that some will see the truth!! Keep pressing on!
Joanne
Christian mosh pit? Christian trance dancing?
Great!! Content and you can see Rock VDO Clipt. You can Search for your interesting…
How does any of this glorify the Lord? It drives me insane just listening to it and it may be due to the fact I am older but I could not stand listening to this for very long!
Where is Jesus in all of this? Gee, I hate to be judgmental but how do I get closer to Jesus if I am in a stupid trance? I went to a church that I got almost in a trance but they didn’t have the drum beats like this but the music nevertheless was very inticing and I now see the truth in how wrong that was and it WAS NOT the Holy SPIRIT that was in it!!
This is terrible that people think God is in this. It just goes to show how hungry people are for the supernatural and why isn’t the true church of Jesus Christ seeing the supernatural and the miracles that Christ and his disciples performed? I still believe in miracles and the Holy supernatural and we so need to see that today but not this way that these videos are showing!!
God help us to see your truth and to be wise enough to see the one who also can deceive!
In response to Chris Logan, I don’t see how it doesn’t glorify the lord, just because it isn’t traditional music doesn’t mean anything at all. I don’t see anything wrong with it at all, in fact, this type of Christian paranoia and xenophobia is disgusting to me.
The reason humans created music was because of the trance-like effect it has over our minds, it makes us feel good, it calms and soothes us or it works us up and excites us. Obviously we all have our individual tastes, some of us aren’t partial to the same music others are, but the fact remains that music has this power over us. ALL music. This is no different from a group of people joining hands and singing hymns.
It’s pathetic, really, that you condemn something simply because it doesn’t seem “Christian” enough for you.
My question is, how is God NOT in it? God gave us the gift of music, so by using it in his name, to worship him, is it not being used correctly?
And, the last time I checked, faith IS a feeling, you feel your faith. If you don’t feel your faith, then something’s wrong. We LOVE the lord, do we not? Is love not a feeling? Is there something so disgustingly wrong with FEELING love for your Lord and Savior? Ecstasy is a word, it means, and I quote, “an overwhelming feeling of great happiness or joyful excitement.” Is that not how the Lord is supposed to make us feel? Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t believe God intended us to be unhappy and bored. There is nothing at all wrong with experiencing joy or excitement, and if you think those are the tools of Satan, I suggest you think again, because those too were gifts from God, and if we experience them in coincidence with worshiping the Lord, I do believe we are experiencing them correctly.
Paranoid xenophobes such as yourself make me lose faith in humanity.
And please don’t tell me I’m not being Christian in my judgement of what I believe to be erroneous mindwash, I’m not Christian in the first place.
Question : Does this all link with the Jungian theory of evolution seen interpreted in music by Tool etc. ?
All of this seems to be aimed at soon having everyone living in the same alternate consciousness.This could lead to a popular belief in next stage evolution .This may sound extreme but with the way this is all progressing and with globalization,the reality can’t be all that far.
Also, many music tracks try to play on an idea of dominance rather than beneficial healing to manipulate people into re-directing their faith and energy to this ‘otherworldly bringing’,some of these tracks have futuristic alien themes…Basically,the more pagan and inconceivable sounding something is,the more its sacred liminality ,and the more the belief in its spiritual relation to the body and soul.
It works as a placebo and an even greater one with other placebos such as recreational drugs.
This is definitely taking people away from God and the Bible.
This is coming off as extremely paranoid and juvenile but it is hard for me to put down in words the feelings associated with an alternate Theta state. My current experimentation on my own has tried to be as objective as possible,without re coursing to paranoid or unsubstantiated evidence.Going through all of it makes you come out into a very ‘I guess I just don’t know’ phase.
Very interesting theory! I have thought about some of this myself. How much manipulation is going on in worship settings through the music? Some of it is definitely hypnotic!
The Shamanistic state is a natural part of our body function. If God had not meant us to use it he would not have built it into us.
Shamanism is the oldest and purest form of spirituality, christianity has always tried to distance its believers from the direct spiritual experience which shamanism has always offered. You are fear mongering about nothing. The reawakening of our built in spiritual aware is a good thing and will bring healing to the world.
Stephen Brightwood
Actually, Stephen what you are promoting is forbidden by God and for good reason. We believe that Jesus Christ already brought healing to the world by dying for our sins. His Kingdom come, HIS will be done. Eventually HIS kingdom will fully reign on the earth.
G-d shall do what HE wishes.
a pleasure to hear your zeal in searching things out but it is also a pleasure to see those with a zeal to dance before G-d. we need 2 b careful in our judgments, not after the sight of the eye or the hearing of the ear…
i just finished a trance or dance track for my Lord, maybe you would be interested in sharing your thoughts. here is the addresses of the Psalm:
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=7886035
i could say more but….G-d is on the throne…Amen
did not David dance with zeal before the Lord…
the prince of this world is working overtime for his time is short, the tares are being removed from the wheat, & the LORD G-d will send a His messengers into the midst to save…by His Word. …..
David, I have never been opposed to dancing before the Lord. I have danced before the Lord with all my might at 9 months pregnant. (probably before you were born!) I’ve also prayed in the Spirit for hours at a time. What I’m objecting to and what is NOT biblical is going into a trance and altering your state of consciousness…. so good luck with that because you are correct when you say that the god of this world is working overtime to deceive.
What disturbs me the most about this hostility towards this new form of Christian worships is that it confirms what has been historically always been true about the proponents of the monotheistic faiths. By demanding that individuals snuff out and suppress the God given spiritual intuition with in them by calling it “sinful”, “deviant” and “misleading”, in order to ensure that their version of God’s word is the only spiritual guidance faithful receive. Leaders of great and powerful civilizations have often converted to monotheist faiths because it gave them a rigid power structure to impress on their subjects to legitimize themselves and make the administration of empire more efficient. That is the way every major religion on this planet rose to status, it was adopted by a political structure to give themselves legitimacy. By cutting the individual’s ties to their own spiritual compass, by convincing them of all the devils, demons and Hellfire that await them when they listen to their own sense of God and purpose that is how the few govern the many, and the many then lose their true awareness of their humanity by swallowing a “M.R.E. of Faith” instead of planting, harvesting and preparing their own natural “Meal of Faith.” I could write a thesis on this extremely important part of human history and social evolution if I truly had enough time, but suffice to say that if were a Christian I would be embracing this new form of worship as a means by which an individual can have a truly holistic experience of Christ not only as we know him now in our mind and soul, but through our heart and body as well, just as our ancestors knew their gods (false though they may have been). If God gave us so many capacities to know Him, then why would he demand that we should use only one?
Trance based worship is leading to a global pagan religion that will be used ultimately by the controllers of society to manipulate the whole mass of the people into a one world occult religion.
However, you must be keenly sensitive to the fact that the larger Christian establishment’s* disavowal to the human spirit is to blame if such an occult religion succeeds.
Modern Christianity is so out of touch with what the canonized scriptures actually teach that it is a religion that is only demonstrated and received in the flesh and substitutes emotions about God for spiritual dwelling with God.
1. Strict adherence to a set of laws (fundamental to the old covenant or new fangled, depending on which temple you attend).
2. Faith in the new covenant.
3. Regular attending of religious temple and paying the temple tax (tithe).
While these tenants aren’t bad, and at least one of them is necessary to salvation, teaching about transcendent spiritual existence is completely ignored which leaves Christians empty and with lack of knowledge about a very important aspect of our triune** existence as God created us.
Leading an unbeliever into denial of the flesh and teaching said person to ignore the spiritual side of his existence is not only cruel, but it fails to lead that person into a lifetime of dwelling with God in the spirit. This sort of apostate teaching can act as a catalyst to a person falling away when enticed by teaching that excludes Christ but teaches about the spiritual.
I am not defending the use of mind altering substances and frequencies in worship. Feel good contemporary Christian Music has no more of a place in true worship than electronic music does. It is wise to teach about the spiritual side of dwelling with God, rather than just saying once again, ad nauseum: “don’t do that, just listen to me!”
Nay, I say “Walk in the spirit.” Gal 5:!6
*(Catholic, Non-denominational, Community and other protestant tax exempt organizations, house churches, prayer groups and etc)
**Body, mind, spirit
wow… Lord I pray you be with me as I reply to this “person” without going insane and saying things that wouldn’t be pleasing to you. truthspeaker…you’re out of your mind. Seriously. I am the founder of http://www.GodsDjs.com the largest community of CHRISTIANS online who love the Lord and who love dance music and dance worship. To say that anyone who listens to electronic dance music and worships with it is practicing shamanism is just plain wrong an offensive and grieves the heart of the Lord. Your mind is soooo small and you can’t even grasp the fact that there are others in the world that have creative forms of worship that don’t fit into your “BOX”. You know nothing at all about that which you speak and your sermon above only makes you look like a fool and so far what I’ve read on this site borderlines the occult. Normally, I wouldn’t even waste my breath posting on a silly little basement blog like this but when you attack our MINISTRY and the vision the Lord has placed on our hearts I will not be silent. How dare you write what you did above without actually knowing anything about it. For your information Christian Dance music is the future of worship so either go live in a cave or try to open your mind to what the Lord is doing on the earth. The Bible says that in the end times He will pour out His Spirit on the earth and men will have dreams and visions. Now that being said…yes there are some very extreme cases where the line between dance worship and new age thinking has gotten blurred…honestly I believe the xtreme prophetica stuff is a bit out there and I don’t support it either but I would never condemn it. You NEED to be careful about what you say and who you judge. All I know is on judgment day when I stand before the Lord I’d much rather have one of my sins be that I got just a little to upset on a blog reply one day instead of that started a website where I preached lies, deceit, descension, and caused many to stumble and maybe even some lose their salvation. I just saw a post on here stating that the International House of Prayer is newage!!!! Oprah is newage. Not IHOP, they are a prime example of what the Lord is doing on the earth today in Christianity. Everything I’ve read on your site seems that you want nothing to do with Christianity today but you want to claim you’re a Christian and preach you version of the Bible…just like Joespeh Smith or Charles Taze Russell did a few hundred years ago. (If you don’t know who they are try using the interwebnets searchers…they gives you all kinds of neat information!) Seriously, stop. Stop everything you’re doing. Delete this site and repent. God can and does forgive all sins! I truly pray for your eyes to be opened and for your heart to be softened to what the Lord has in store. But don’t think for one second you can spew lies about us with no repercussions.
DJ, I will turn the other cheek to all your insults and just say this: there is a BIG difference between real worship and what you are talking about. Real worship doesn’t even require music. Jesus didn’t have a worship team, yet he was all that true worship was. What you are advocating is a flesh feast that appeals to the soul realm of man and you think that that is what please the Lord. I fear that you are greatly deceived and will all the rave music and head banging going on, I wonder who is really out of their minds ??
this comments about Christian Electronic Dance Music, reminds me the people who said that God can’t be the father, the Son and the Holly Spirit at the same time, so foolish, its like trying to put God in a box.
The Fool has said in his heart, there is no God,
in some translations you can read, The fool says “NO” God,
and that is what we are seeing here.
NO God, you can’t get out of my traditions and religion,
NO God, you can’t do anything with a movement of Electronic Music.
NO God, you should not use this type of music to bless anyone.
NO God, I don’t want you use this music, cuz I think is evil, and I’m smarter than you,
again, The fool says, “NO God”
Jesus, my Lord is the creator, and he continues creating, but I understand, the new things from God are not for old minds.
Matthew 9:17
Neither is new wine put into old wineskins; if it is, the skins burst, and the wine is spilled, and the skins are destroyed; but new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved.”
and what can we expect from religios people full of traditions and rules?
well the same things Jesus was facing with the religios leaders
Matthew 11
But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, 17 ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance; we wailed, and you did not mourn.’ 18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon’; 19 the Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’
for them everything that does not looks like their traditions inside their small box is evil, and they just judge other people.
Matthew 7:1
“Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.
The truth will make you free.
free from religion, free from traditions,
This blog is call Truthspeakers, but not every body here is speaking the truth, because if you know the truth then you will be free, but here I see lots of comments of people that are not free, they look more like some one inside a small box, and they can not get out of it.
ohh I almost forget to tell you, I’m a Worship Trance Music Producer.
all the Glory for Jesus whoe gave me this vision.
i will have to agree with djrodimus here, yes i agree that worship doesnt NEED music, and worship can be done without music, yea, worship can also be done while you are cooking, reading a book, cutting someone’s hair, driving your car, sitting in the sun, or yes… dancing. theres even a whole place in the bible about music and praising the lord with song. now what you are saying here is that if to dont listen or play music that is set to a very specific guideline, you are a sinner and its wring! what? are you serious? there are THOUSANDS of different genre’s of music out there, and what your saying here is that if you dont listen to the one specific type of music then you are giving yourself over to shaminism? im sorry guy but thats just silly. I know for a fact that you are going to completely disregard this and any other post placed here that opposes your view, because your singlemindedness is just as astounding as EVERY OTHER person ive seen this similar post before. This argument is not new, it has been around since music has. I personally make music that is like what you are talking about. when i make this music, i make it with the full intent to glorify god with it. Now how can you sit there and tell me that the music i made to glorify gods with is bad? The only thing different from any other type of music is that i use electronic instruments to compose my music. are you going to tell me that synthesizers are of the devil? please man give me a break. next time, please research the things you are going to rip on befor you open your ignorant mouth.
To Alejandro: no comment!
No, wait. I changed my mind. You’re a “worship trance music producer”? Whoa. I’m astounded. Shaking my head. Totally amazed.
What is 1. Trance music and 2. How to you produce a trance? (and then apply music)?
Truthspeaker, this blog gets better with each and every passing day! …and yes, they do sound a tad ‘threatened’.
SP
hey “Truthspeaker”,
i just wanted to humbly reply to your last post about “REAL Worship”
i dont think “REAL worship” is a valid terminoligy because you cant define it, everyones interpretation of what “real worship” is can be different, you may call what we are doing “fake” or “misleading” worship, but to us it is a way of worshipping God. its not about what you may define “real”, it’s about what’s acceptable in Gods eye’s as an offering of worship.
Romans 12:1 says “Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God – this is true worship.”
only the bible can define “TRUE” or “REAL” worship.
Worship is all about living for God in everything we do. you cannot “BOX” or “Define” worship because it’s not our place to judge what is acceptable and whats not. if what we are doing is a sin or wrong, tell me where it says in the bible: TRANCE MUSIC IS NOT “REAL WORSHIP”.
It is through Gods grace and love for us that we can enter into that place of worship and offer up our lives to Him, Jesus died on the cross not only to forgive all our sins with the grace of God but also to create a new covenant so we could freely enter His presence and worship Him.
by the way the last 2 lines of your post didnt even make sense. I Quote “I fear that you are greatly deceived and will all the rave music and head banging going on, I wonder who is really out of their minds ??”
im not condemning you in any way for “trying” to justify your point of “Shamanistic Drum Beats and Trance Dancing – Christian Beware!”
beacuse im not one to judge, im just saying it how it is… ONLY GOD CAN DEFINE TRUE or REAL WORSHIP.
and i know your probably just going to try to justify your point yet again by looking for flaws in my reply, but i dont care what you throw against me, because im a child of God, i know the authority i have been given in Christ, and i will not be silent.
Peace
“What is 1. Trance music and 2. How to you produce a trance? (and then apply music)? ”
how can you condemn something if you know NOTHING about it… and its not “a trance music” its just called “trance music” but the word trance only refers to the type of music, not what it does to you spiritually, physically or emotionally. why dont you do some research befor you so blindly condemn things, i remember something like this happening a few years back, there was this guy jesus, that was teaching something that was outside of the pharasiees mindset, so instead of trying to learn what he was all about they hung him on a cross for being a blasphemer… why dont you check out that speck in your eye real quick before you mess with this plank.
hehe this is almost funny. i can say its funny, because im 14…and a CHRISTIAN edm producer. i produce all styles too, whoa i must really be sinning. where in the Bible (God’s word, all of His commands, if it was important he would have put it in there) does it say “And thine ears may not hear new music, and sing a new song, for thine souls will perish for this is a sin unto my name, and i will not tolerate any activities of the devil such as this”? i can answer that for you…NOWHERE! in fact, he WANTS us (yes, he wants us, as in he encourages it) to worship in new ways. he wants us to enjoy being with him, and enjoy listening to music that glorifies him. what you’re starting to sound like to me is one of those people who believe the only heavenly music out there is those old acapella hymns. the only problem with that theory is that there are very many camps ive been to where they had ~gasp~ DRUMS! oh no, we’re practically at the gates of hell now. now at these camps, you know, the future of our world? yea, those camps with this “devil” music if im getting you right…EVERYONE WAS SAVED! and everyone who was already save REDEDICATED! (those are GOOD things) what christian edm producers, christian rock bands, and ~gasp~ even christian rap (where its basicly only drums) are doing is a good thing. we are adding more and more into the kingdom of heaven. you should be rejoicing with us, not telling us we’re sinning.
P.S. im never going to believe you on this subject, because you have yet to show any of us a scripture that says it’s wrong.
Deej
Your defensiveness is proof of your ignorance. I never said you were sinning. I said that certain beats of music can put the brain into an hypnotic trance where demonic influences can enter in.
I don’t care if you ever believe me on this subject, because I’m not trying to convince you otherwise. Don’t bother commenting back because I won’t post your abusive trite immature comments. Eventually you will crash and burn… I only hope and pray that your survive.
Actually Ellipse…. it can put you into a trance, that’s where you are wrong. If you’ve ever been in a cult or experience kundalini you would know a thing or two. Why don’t you do some homework instead of being on the immature defensive track? It might save your life.
First of all…. you and all your friends need to learn how to spell.
Secondly, I never said this:
now what you are saying here is that if to dont listen or play music that is set to a very specific guideline, you are a sinner and its wring!
What I’m saying is that jumping up and down and banging your brain against your skull isn’t worship and can produce trance states and demonic activity. If you don’t want to believe that…. I hope you don’t wind up in the mental hospital in a few years.
I’ll be praying for you dj and all your little friends who are so lost and don’t know it. Obiviously this post has truck a cord since you forwarded it to all your dj friends. How old are you guys, btw? any of you pass 20 yet?
yes im 26 and was the worship leader at a youthgroup at a non denominational church for 6 years before i joined the military
we are in our late 20′s to early 40′s actually. You can visit our site and see many videos and pictures of us if you wish. im married, own a house, 2 cars and have a great job so experience and maturity aren’t an issue. its more then ok if you don’t like the kind of music that we are making and by all means please don’t listen to it…(wouldn’t want you to fall into a trance now…) but the issue is that you clearly have no idea what you’re talking about and your post here is basically declaring war on our ministry. this is the reason that everyone has gotten so upset. However, at this point I’m going to ask our members not to post on here anymore because no good is coming from this exchange. We simply felt the need to defend an unwarrented, blatent attack on our ministry and on worshiping the Lord. Godsdjs.com is not threatend by your wordpress.com hosted blog so don’t get confused there. Our 1100 members on the forum and 200,000+ unique anual visitors aren’t going to change their minds about our vision and ministry because of your site trust me. Our 24/7 (100% legal) radio station isn’t going to stop broadcasting because of any of this. We will continue to praise the Lord with dance, with signing, with TRANCE…and House, Drum N Bass, Break Beats, Psy, Hard Style, Electro, and all the other forms of electronic dance music you’ll never understand or hear. Have a nice night.
lol… im 18, i have never experienced a “trance” or an “altered state of mind” while listening to trance music or worshiping God. don’t get me wrong, i can understand how u may think that trance music is all about “luring people into trances”. like Ellipse said “its not “a trance music” its just called “trance music” but the word trance only refers to the type of music, not what it does to you spiritually, physically or emotionally”.
my question truthspeaker is how old are you??? and what denomination are you from??? i wont discriminate against you in any way, it will just bring more understanding to why u have these opinions about trance music.
also did you ever think that the kids on those videos were maybe experiencing the holy spirit??? and that’s why they appear to be “Trance Dancing”. as you call it.
also i Quote “they look a lot like rave parties with many people up front as in a rock concert or mosh pit”…
that’s how music is these days… that’s how youth enjoy music, loud jumping around praising God. if we played a bunch of 500 year old hymns and everyone stood in their rows of chairs or pew’s do you think young people would be interested???… NO… because that’s boring… the world is changing… people in the 21st century love loud, jump around, sing at the top of your lungs music… i would love to show u what a Christian youth event looked like in person… because then maybe your eyes would be opened to how the presence of God is moving through people’s lives.
God never change’s but as human beings we are always changing, learning the things of God and creating new ways of bringing worship before God, that is why God made us Creative and Blessed us with gifts, to write songs that will lift up his name and open our hearts to His word.
We are not being “Ignorant”, we are merely trying to explain to you how your theology is somewhat misleading and cant possibly be true.
let me know the day you actually experience an “Altered state of Mind” from listening to Christian Trance Music… then ill consider your opinion, and pray that your eyes will be opened to what God has for us in this day and age…
and that “HOLY SPIRIT HOUSE PARTY” video was sooo not christian… it looked legit, because of the banners and what they were saying… but all that was just a bunch of people who started their own church and decided that they need to get drunk and high to feel good and experience the presence of God…
i don’t know about you but that seemed much much more like a colt or “pagan religion” to me. i would be posting about how that is not even close to lining up with Christianity and our moral values, not using that as a lame example of how christian Trance music can put people into trances and create and altered state of mind… those people were all high and drunk on vodka if you didn’t notice.. they were in an altered state of mind, not because of the music, but because of the drugs going through their body making things seem different…
you really threw this blog together quickly didn’t you??? or did you take your time and find the worst examples possible to try and put your point across?
id do more homework next time and find some decent examples to put your point across, and if you cant find something that specifically lines up with the bible or what your saying, then don’t bother posting it, because if you do (like you have) you will get people like us, defending our music and quoting scripture proving that what were are doing is totally acceptable in the eyes of God and not creating “altered states of mind” in the young people of the 21st century.
another question i have for you is, how often do you read your bible? or spend time with God? i know I’m not perfect in these area’s but if your not in Gods word and getting new revelations from it, your theology is going to be whacked…
I am 3 weeks away from completing bible college, so if you want to try and defend your case, i have spent a year learning the word of God and how to outwork it in my life, so i have PLENTY of scriptural evidence and experience that i can show you to support everything that we are doing…
as i said in my last post “I’m not condemning you in any way for “trying” to justify your point”, I’m simply trying to help open your eyes to how we can worship God through trance music and even if we are banging our heads and moshing we are still worshiping our God, because music Is powerful and its not even really about the music, its about the words that are coming out of our mouths in praise to God.
ill leave you with some Scripture to read and have a think about.
Psalm 100:2
2 Worship the LORD with gladness;
come before him with joyful songs.
AND
John 4:21-26
21Jesus declared, “Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”
25The woman said, “I know the Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”
26Then Jesus declared, “I who speak to you am he.”
Peace
Dj,
Here’s what I perceive happened…. you found this plog post, took it as an attack on your “ministry” and then went to your forum and reported it to all your 1100 members, some of whom came over here and commented with rude and sarcastic remarks. You all responded emotionally. What happened to turning the other cheek?
If you all had come here with Christian love, and the open exchange of ideas, I would have been very willing to listen to all of you. What I saw happening was a bunch of immature, emotion led people jumping on me to attack.
I suggest to you that next time something like this happens you take the low road (humility), rather than the high road of pride. (Ie: Godsdjs.com is not threatend by your wordpress.com hosted blog so don’t get confused there. Our 1100 members on the forum and 200,000+ unique anual visitors aren’t going to change their minds about our vision and ministry because of your site trust me. Our 24/7 (100% legal) radio station isn’t going to stop broadcasting because of any of this. )
In almost every comment made here recently there was a similar thread “we like this”, “this is the kind of music we like” “you put God in a box” etc. To my way of thinking when it’s about US it’s simply humanism. I recommend that you all spend a few hours on your knees praying in tongues and find out who Jesus Christ really is.
I recently went back and looked at the comments on this thread and thought I’d leave you with this from another person who commented:
“truthseekertruethinker Says:
October 20, 2009 at 3:53 pm edit
Trance based worship is leading to a global pagan religion that will be used ultimately by the controllers of society to manipulate the whole mass of the people into a one world occult religion.
However, you must be keenly sensitive to the fact that the larger Christian establishment’s* disavowal to the human spirit is to blame if such an occult religion succeeds.
Modern Christianity is so out of touch with what the canonized scriptures actually teach that it is a religion that is only demonstrated and received in the flesh and substitutes emotions about God for spiritual dwelling with God. ”
I have also closed the comments on this thread because of the rude responses being spewed by the “trance dancers”.
GBY and I will be praying for you.
Djmix, to this comment:
“that’s how music is these days… that’s how youth enjoy music, loud jumping around praising God. ”
It may be how youth enjoy music but that’s HUMANISM…. it’s all about YOU…. not God!
I’m very happy for you that you are in bible college….but knowing about scripture doesn’t make you a christian. True christianity is scripture applied to your character to change you into the image of Jesus Christ. You are only 18, don’t be pretensious enough to think you could challenge people with your bible sword! Seriously! You’ve spent a whole YEAR studying the bible?! I’ve spent move than your whole age LIVING it. You’re still green and untested through the fires of life. I suggest you get down off your high horse and get down on your knees. “Pride goeth before a fall and a haughty spirit before destruction.”
I will leave you with this verse:
Romans 12:1 “To offer your bodies as living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God – this is your spiritual act of worship.”
This verse is NOT about jumping up and down and feeling good…. it’s about laying your life down for God and for your fellow man. It’s about saying “let YOUR WILL be done, NOT MINE”
That is real and true worship.
To “truth”speaker:
im sorry but your comment to djmix “You’re still green and untested through the fires of life. I suggest you get down off your high horse and get down on your knees.”…do you know whats in highschools and colleges now? even in christian schools, there is: pornography, drugs, alchohol, sex, selling of weapons, and all the wrong you can think of. now back to the whole trance subject – we’re sorry if we were rude in trying to get our point across, but this is our ministry for GOD. you say we’re doing this for ourselves, but its not for us. in fact, we have sacrificed a lot of ourselves to do this for God. now if you are convicted not to listen to trance, or any other type of edm, then dont do it. thats when it becomes a sin, because you are diliberately discerning what God has pressed on your heart. but we are going to continue what we do because thats our conviction, to spread the word with music that the world likes. the world is who we are trying to win for christ
Matthew 28 : 18 – 20
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
we’re trying to make them christians, and the way God has called us to do that is to put Godly messages in music the world enjoys listening to. because, lets face it, when is the last time you heard a lost person in there car listening to old hymns? they dont, they listen to rock, rap, metal, country, edm, and other kinds of genres. not because it “puts you in another state of mind” if it did, they wouldnt be driving. they do it because rhythm is kind of like caffeine – it makes going through the day a lot easier. now the messages in the music will get into a persons head and affect the way they live, so if we can put Godly messages in the music they listen to, little by little, we are making disciples for Christ. now since God has obviously called you to serve Him in a different way, that’s great! He calls all of us in different ways. but dont tell us to stop our ministry because its not the same as yours.
Deej
Deej,
Let me just start by saying that I know it’s hard to be a Christian and especially as a teenager. But really, that’s nothing new. When I was young there was drugs, sex and rock and roll. When the early church was birthed it was being thrown to the lions or false religion.
I appreciate your zeal to do something for God, but in this case I think you are misguided….. let me explain:
In your comment: “you say we’re doing this for ourselves, but its not for us.” I never said that you are DOING the music for yourselves…. you misunderstand me. Let me use these statement to help explain what I mean:
“but we are going to continue what we do because thats our conviction, to spread the word with music that the world likes. the world is who we are trying to win for christ”
“put Godly messages in music the world enjoys listening to. because,” and “it makes going threw the day a lot easier”
What I’m trying to say is that instead of bringing fallen man UP to a HOLY God you are bringing God down to the level of fallen man……Helping fallen man FEEL BETTER or listening to something HE ENJOYS. That is HUMANISM.
So, taking satanic beats in music and putting Christian lyrics to them isn’t the biblical way to get people saved. The Word of God MUST be our plumbline!
But my objection was and still remains, that this kind of music can be spiritually dangerous and it is not worship. (Jesus didn’t have a worship team and contemporary Christian music has only been around for about 40 years)…….. We are called to win the world to Jesus, not by music, but by the love we show one another….. in other words, by our lifestyle of sacrifical giving and laying our lives down on the altar and submitting completely to God’s will. It’s never been about converting something worldly into something christian and trying to win the lost. I have been a missionary to the Chinese for 15 years. We don’t bow down to Buddha in order to win them to Jesus. We bring them to repentance and a completely new worldview.
Truthspeaker said: “I have been a missionary to the Chinese for 15 years. We don’t bow down to Buddha in order to win them to Jesus.” That was good.
Deej, how are you, a believer in Christ, going to show someone something better if you’re acting just like them? What are you going to do, tell them about Jesus after the heavy metal’s done?
Man, I remember back when I was your age. I was one of those crazies who said, “I’d try anything once.” I was living hard & nothing meant anything to me if I didn’t like it or agree with it. I remember going to a church one Friday night that was having “Christian Rock” in the basement of the building. We’d sit and listen to the music, smoking cigarettes and talking, laughing, you name it. Yeah, the band sang Christian lyrics but the music was just like any other I’d crank out of my stereo. When it was time to close up shop, we’d head out to the car and light up.
You know what I remember the most about that? I remember thinking, “I’m going to a party that my mom approves of”! Great party!
I became a Christian the day after learning how to make “homemade speed” on the kitchen stove…learned how to mainline it. The very next day, I ended up with a couple of Christians who took me to a place where Christian music was being performed. It wasn’t hard rock and I didn’t get wound up listening to it. It was very peaceful, melodic, very touching music. Then the people began singing in the spirit and the music just went on and on like that for about 10 minutes. I remember saying to my husband, “Whatever they’ve got, I want it.” I was about 20 at that time.
The music you’re promoting is the complete opposite. If anything, you’re helping them stay down. “What I’m trying to say is that instead of bringing fallen man UP to a HOLY God you are bringing God DOWN to the level of fallen man……Helping fallen man FEEL BETTER by listening to something HE ENJOYS.” Truthspeaker nailed it on that one.
SP